|
Post by Hans Schokkenbroek on Jan 18, 2020 9:41:55 GMT
I am surprised to find that we do not have a thread for this wise man. We lost so much on the WPP forum.
Anyway, I came across this quote from him in a different thread (Angeliki's) but I think he deserves a seperate thread.....
Question (Student): How can we get to know ourselves?
Krishnamurti: You know your face because you often see it in the mirror. Now, there is a mirror in which you can see yourself as a whole – not your face, but everything you are thinking, everything you are feeling, your motivations, your desires, your impulses and your fears.
This mirror is the mirror of relationships: the relationship between you and your parents, the relationship between you and your teachers, between you and the river, the trees, the land, between you and your thoughts.
Relationships are a mirror in which you can see yourself, not as you would like it to be, but as it really is. Maybe I expect, when I see myself in any mirror, to look prettier than I am, but that is not the case, because the mirror shows my face exactly as it is, and I cannot fool myself.
In the same way, I can see myself just as I am in the mirror of my relationships with others. I can observe the way I talk to others: in a very polite way to those who I believe can give me something and indifferently or abruptly to those who are indifferent to me. I watch how I treat the ones I fear. I show respect to important people, but I despise beggars.
Thus, by observing myself in my relationships, I realize at some point that I don’t really respect people, isn’t that right?
Similarly, I can discover how I am in my relationships with trees, with birds, with ideas and with books. You can get all the university degrees in the world, but if you do not know yourself, you will be one of the most stupid people. That is exactly the purpose of the education: For one to know his/her self.
Simply gathering information or taking notes and reading so you can pass the exams without learning about yourself is a stupid way to live. You may have learned by heart excerpts from Bhagavat Gita and recite them at the first opportunity, but if you do not know yourself you are like a parrot just repeating words.
On the contrary, from the moment you start to know even a few things about yourself, an amazing course of creativity has already begun. It is a true discovery to suddenly see yourself as it really is: greedy, hot tempered, angry, jealous, stupid. Seeing this without trying to change, just seeing what you really are, is a startling revelation. From there you can go deeper and deeper, because there is no end to learning yourself. As you learn yourself, you begin to discover what God is, what truth is, what the state that is beyond time is.
Your teacher can pass on the knowledge he or she has received from his or her teacher; and he or she can do well in your exams, you may get a diploma and all the rest, but without knowing yourself as you know your face by seeing it in the mirror, any other knowledge is of very little importance.
Those who know a lot of things but do not know themselves are not really intelligent people; they do not know what thinking means, what life means. That is why it is important that the teacher himself has been trained, in the proper meaning of the word, which means he must know the functions of his mind and heart, that he sees himself exactly as he is in the mirror of relationships. Knowledge of the self is the beginning of wisdom. In the knowledge of the self lies the whole universe, which embraces every effort of humanity.
The Sense of Happiness Krishnamurti KASTANIOTI PUBLICATIONS
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2020 9:15:51 GMT
“You may remember the story of how the devil and a friend of his were walking down the street when they saw ahead of them a man stoop down and pick up something from the ground, look at it, and put it away in his pocket. The friend said to the devil, “What did that man pick up?” “He picked up a piece of Truth,” said the devil. “That is a very bad business for you, then,” said his friend. “Oh, not at all,” the devil replied, “I am going to let him organize it.”
I maintain that Truth is a pathless land, and you cannot approach it by any path whatsoever, by any religion, by any sect. That is my point of view, and I adhere to that absolutely and unconditionally. Truth, being limitless, unconditioned, unapproachable by any path whatsoever, cannot be organized; nor should any organization be formed to lead or to coerce people along any particular path. If you first understand that, then you will see how impossible it is to organize a belief. A belief is purely an individual matter, and you cannot and must not organize it. If you do, it becomes dead, crystalized; it becomes a creed, a sect, a religion, to be imposed on others. This is what everyone throughout the world is attempting to do. Truth is narrowed down and made a plaything for those who are weak, for those who are only momentarily discontented.”
— Jiddu Krishnamurti, Total Freedom
|
|
|
Post by Henrik on Apr 7, 2020 11:08:05 GMT
So true, in order to accurately depict Truth (big T) one would need a computer the size and scope of the Universe (big U) and let it run the same amount of time with the same input for any given "point" of Truth. This is not to say that individuals may not pick up bits of Truth and stumble upon it as the man who picked ut up along the road, but going from there to "organizing" it and transferring that knowledge is something else entirely. What comes of this are bits and pieces of Truth in a framework of the understanding of its writers and readers, transforming it into pracictal guidelines for communcation and cooperation and turning into dogma, means-to-an-end.
The Truth instantly becomes truth (small t) and inevitably gets more and more corrupted and dies a slowdeath, leaving a shadow of itself, doing more harm than good.
In a way, this corresponds to Plato's Cave, the shadow of Truth is the truth we see.
|
|
|
Post by Hans Schokkenbroek on Apr 7, 2020 11:50:14 GMT
Jimchan made a reappearance, at least some of us think that, some while ago, and I often think about him in the sense that he seemed to have transcended all this truth seeking. I still observe things and read and watch certain things when I feel I should (based on my inner guidance) but I have totally given up on trying to come up with a picture of the truth. My Higher Self (or whatever you want to name it) brought me to this stage and I have decided to just listen to the guidance, act upon it but stop the questioning why things happen.
|
|
|
Post by mironlang on Apr 7, 2020 14:00:45 GMT
“You may remember the story of how the devil and a friend of his were walking down the street when they saw ahead of them a man stoop down and pick up something from the ground, look at it, and put it away in his pocket. The friend said to the devil, “What did that man pick up?” “He picked up a piece of Truth,” said the devil. “That is a very bad business for you, then,” said his friend. “Oh, not at all,” the devil replied, “I am going to let him organize it.” I maintain that Truth is a pathless land, and you cannot approach it by any path whatsoever, by any religion, by any sect. That is my point of view, and I adhere to that absolutely and unconditionally. Truth, being limitless, unconditioned, unapproachable by any path whatsoever, cannot be organized; nor should any organization be formed to lead or to coerce people along any particular path. If you first understand that, then you will see how impossible it is to organize a belief. A belief is purely an individual matter, and you cannot and must not organize it. If you do, it becomes dead, crystalized; it becomes a creed, a sect, a religion, to be imposed on others. This is what everyone throughout the world is attempting to do. Truth is narrowed down and made a plaything for those who are weak, for those who are only momentarily discontented.” — Jiddu Krishnamurti, Total Freedom This is magnificent. Thanks Griffy )))))
|
|
|
Post by Stranger2 on Apr 7, 2020 14:06:38 GMT
Any kind of "truth" we can ever have will always be a mental construct, a content of a thought. A thought can never completely embrace and be equal to reality, simply because those are things of entirely different nature. Thought can only present a mental model of reality. It's very much like science, no scientific theory can ever express or embrace the reality, but it can model it with a certain degree of accuracy. We can differentiate between totally wrong models, and models with certain degree of accuracy. The progress in our understanding of reality can be measured by how more or less accurate or adequate our models are with respect to the reality. We do not know what the Truth is in its entirety, but can say with certainty that the Earth is not resting on turtles. But interesting point is that the way humans naturally perceive the reality has nothing to do with what reality is and how it actually functions. It is just one of those totally inadequate and wrong models of reality. The way we see the world is a total fiction existing only in our minds. For details I would refer to the works of cognitive scientist Donald Hoffman. But it's not just about wrong perception, it's also about our way of life. The way we perceive the world determines the way we live in it. Specifically, our egoic way of functioning is entirely based upon our dualistic perception of reality, which is totally inadequate, because no matter what the reality is (consciousness, matter, a mix of both or anything else), there is no way it could be dualistic, there is no way any separate entities like our "selves" could exist in it. But our egoic functioning is exactly based on the dualistic perception where we perceive ourselves as some real entities separate from the rest of reality, and as a consequence, we develop fear of death, struggle to survive etc. So, it's not just about the philosophy and knowledge, it is all deeply tied to the way we actually live.
|
|
|
Post by mironlang on Apr 7, 2020 14:07:16 GMT
Jimchan made a reappearance, at least some of us think that, some while ago, and I often think about him in the sense that he seemed to have transcended all this truth seeking. I still observe things and read and watch certain things when I feel I should (based on my inner guidance) but I have totally given up on trying to come up with a picture of the truth. My Higher Self (or whatever you want to name it) brought me to this stage and I have decided to just listen to the guidance, act upon it but stop the questioning why things happen. JimC is amazing.. very deep. but... all manifested man in this plane (sheep reality) should have a baseline otherwise you will get drown by the liquidity. That is the reason some people go to the mountains and be hermits. ==
|
|
|
Post by Stranger2 on Apr 7, 2020 14:28:30 GMT
Ha, the question is what is the "baseline". We have basic perceptions (sensations etc) entering our stream of consciousness, but that is only a very basic level of our perception. On top of it we build a "model" of reality which is a complete interpretation and mental fiction. If you close your eyes for a moment, all sensations are gone, there is no baseline anymore, but you would still have that picture of "outside world" and "me in the center of the world" in your mind. That fictitious picture is a very specific but very distorted interpretation of the baseline sensations. It actually has nothing to do with what the reality actually is. So, what is the "baseline" here then? We usually confuse the actual baseline (sensations) with the picture of reality that we unconsciously create in our minds, and we take the latter for real and believe that this is what the "baseline" reality actually is, while actually it is only a by-product of our imagination.
But now, you can argue, how can we live in such a vacuum and liquidity if we do not trust our perception of reality anymore? Well, we still can, although it is not so simple and not "natural" for humans. We definitely know for a fact from our direct conscious experience that the consciousness/awareness is absolutely real. We know for a fact from our direct conscious experience that we have perceptions and thought appearing and disappearing in our consciousness. But building that fiction of the world that we create in our mind and relying on it is actually unnecessary and redundant. Our mind can perfectly function without relying on it. It's not that we have to discard it, it will always be there naturally, but we can just transcend it and see through its fictitious nature. Once we recognize the reality of our consciousness as the most basic level of true reality available to us, we will always see through the fictitious picture of the "world" created in our minds. In fact, that whole "world" the mental picture of which that we usually take for real is nothing more than a content of a thought. It's very much like Santa Claus.
|
|
|
Post by mironlang on Apr 7, 2020 14:38:04 GMT
yes. what is the baseline.... you should have one, otherwise your existence in this realm has no real purpose. you will talk a lot of truth but in the largest scheme of things, it has no point at all. == For as long as you are manifested in this realm, you should function as part of this realm.. otherwise like i said.. be..
|
|
|
Post by Stranger2 on Apr 7, 2020 14:43:07 GMT
nope, I have no obligations to this realm, I'm a free consciousness and choose to be not conditioned by it, even if I participated in manifesting it. I do still function in it as life goes on, but not because I should. Sometimes I chose to function according to circumstances, sometimes I choose not to. We all can always claim back our genuine freedom of the Spirit.
|
|
|
Post by mironlang on Apr 7, 2020 14:53:43 GMT
nope, I have no obligations to this realm, I'm a free consciousness and choose to be not conditioned by it, even if I participated in manifesting it. I do still function in it as life goes on, but not because I should. Sometimes I chose to function according to circumstances, sometimes I choose not to yes you have no obligation.. but every time you reply to a post to this forum. you are participating and giving your energy to this realm. why not claim it now and stop powering this realm? right this minute you can do it.
|
|
|
Post by Stranger2 on Apr 7, 2020 14:59:33 GMT
I'm not the only one who manifests it, so I can not stop it anyway. And it's actually not a question of powering it or not, it will perfectly function no matter if I participate in it and power it or not. But what I can do is to share my insights, may be they will help some other souls (may be not). We all learn from each other here. Most of what I learnt in life I learnt from communicating with other people, so it does help. That's what we also do on this forum too.
|
|
|
Post by mironlang on Apr 7, 2020 15:01:31 GMT
I'm not the only one who manifests it, so I can not stop it. It's actually not a question of powering it or not, it will perfectly function no matter if I participate in powering it or not. But what I can do is to share my insights, may be they will help some other souls (may be not). We all learn from each other. Most of what I learnt in life I learnt from communicating with other people, so it does help. That's what we also do on this forum. copy on this. Thanks Stranger2.
|
|
|
Post by Stranger2 on Apr 7, 2020 15:06:13 GMT
Basically, what is important is not to power it or stop powering, that's not the point. The point is to break free from it, as much as we are able to while in the bodies, and entirely when we leave the bodies. And breaking free all happens inside our consciousness, because our prison is only mental. This manifested "virtual reality" in which we are immersed is only a framework upon which we build the walls of the mental prison in our minds.
|
|
|
Post by mironlang on Apr 7, 2020 15:23:34 GMT
Basically, what is important is not to power it or stop powering, that's not the point. The point is to break free from it, Is that not the same thing? stop powering it and break free from it
|
|
|
Post by Stranger2 on Apr 7, 2020 17:48:24 GMT
Well, not exactly the same but they go along with each other. But again, the base-virtual-reality "realm" is only a framework, so powering it or not is of secondary concern. It's about not powering and breaking free from our mental fiction, the secondary "realm" that we create in our minds (based on the raw material of the base-realm) and then become prisoners of it because we believe that it is real.
|
|